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53 responses so far ↓

• 1 Robbi // Jul 2, 2008 at 12:17 pm

  
  No flaming here. I do understand that sometimes folks get themselves in a place, truly through no fault of their own, where bankruptcy is their only option. But there are a lot of folks who get themselves there due to bad decision-making and pure D lack of responsibility. Now, how to differentiate between those two groups of people, I do not know. I do not, however, think that it is fair, at all, that the people who land themselves there due to bad decision-making and irresponsibility should be rewarded with “healed” credit scores and be promptly given the opportunity to land themselves right back there.

  And I agree that it sucks rocks big time that the folks who *do stick it out and wade through it and take the time and effort and hassle to take care of their own situations get penalized for that in comparison to those who take the easy way.

• 2 Steph // Jul 2, 2008 at 12:25 pm

  
  Robbi - And then there are the folks like Bill and me who got there through a combination of bad decision-making and uncontrollable events.

  At any rate, whatever their reasons for declaring bankruptcy, it oughtta hurt a little. Otherwise, it truly is a “Get Out of Bills Free” card.

• 3 Missy // Jul 2, 2008 at 12:48 pm

  
  I don’t really get why people who claim bankruptcy, after a few years get *gold stars* on their credit report.

  I also feel like people who really try to dig themselves out of their own messes with credit should be the ones getting gold stars dude. Because for real…eating ramen noodles every night so that you can pay off your credit cards deserves something more than “Whoops, Chapter 11 please!”.

• 4 Steph // Jul 2, 2008 at 12:50 pm

  
  Missy - It kind of works like that. Our scores have been steadily improving as we’ve handled our business. But we for sure won’t be getting an “Oh, it’s okay that you screwed up” pass on our reports. :/

• 5 Robbi // Jul 2, 2008 at 2:21 pm

  
  Lots of people (myself included) have ended up in a bad spot due to bad decision making and/or uncontrollable events, but some, like you, choose to deal with it and fix it no matter how long it takes or how much it sucks. So I wasn’t making snark at people who find themselves in a less than ideal financial situation; only commenting on those people in those situations who choose bankruptcy and then get rewarded, basically, for their behavior.

• 6 Steph // Jul 2, 2008 at 2:49 pm

  
  Robbi - I didn’t feel like you were snarking at all. On anyone. I was agreeing with you and sort of throwing out why Bill and I are where we are. We’re not only dorks; we’re dorks with bad luck. :grin:

• 7 Noel // Jul 2, 2008 at 2:55 pm

  
  Ironic, innit? I can tell you from a lending money standpoint that 2 years after discharge it’s a whole new ballgame, credit score wise. It’s like magic. And I totally get that BK is for those folks who for whatever reason get in over their heads, but ISTG (from a lending perspective, now) that some folks just use it like a get out of jail free card, YK? There’s really just no way to get the bad apples out without making it too restrictive for he folks who genuinely need it. I’ve seen reports with multiple BK and I’ll admit being annoyed, like, what. I pay my bills, and here I am eating ramen, and these a@@clowns bought a boat and a house and 65 fafillion credit cards and now they can buy a new place? RRRR. ANY way. I hear ya. It is irritating.

• 8 Steph // Jul 2, 2008 at 3:00 pm

  
  Noel - Let me ask you this - do you really think that the majority of those who declare genuinely could NOT have found another way? (Not snarking; really curious.)

• 9 Noel // Jul 2, 2008 at 3:05 pm

  
  Honestly? Yeah, I do think that a lot of them didn’t *have to file. Back in the 90s, the “stigma” of it went away a little, and suddenly it seemed like everyone was doing it. Then they enacted the legislation that was supposed to make it less easy to file, and it did change a little, but not much. I mean, TBH, it’s a pages long post as to the whole changing of credit, fiscal responsibility and how we (generic) are ALL culpable to a certain extent for why we as a country are a bunch of financial rubes, so to speak. Then you’d lead into how salaries haven’t really changed commesurate with cost of living, and how everything costs waaaayyyy more than it used to, and then balance that with the whole “I need it now” mentality that, say, our grandparents didn’t have…and well, you know, I’d take up way more than the number of characters I’m sure you have allotted for your comments. ::g::

• 10 Steph // Jul 2, 2008 at 3:14 pm

  
  Noel - I don’t think I have a limit, but yeah. So what’s the solution, do you think? I’m genuinely asking because I’d like to give my kids a better financial education than I got. Not that the School of Hard Knocks and Paying for Stupid Mistakes is a *bad teacher, but I’d like to make it a little easier on them. :grin:

• 11 Noel // Jul 2, 2008 at 3:21 pm

  
  God. If I knew, I’d bottle and sell it. Pretty much everyone I talk to has made some kind of boneheaded financial manuver, including me. My best guess is to talk to them about money. Budgeting, allowances, why credit is OK but there’s bad credit and good credit, you know. Not like have them take over finances, but certainly something, YK?

  http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/youthdevelopment/DA6116.html

• 12 Missy // Jul 2, 2008 at 3:27 pm

  
  Dude! Make sure you explain to them how VERY VERY VERY important being on time for your bills is. I learned this mo-fo the hard way when I was young. I was all “Oh a couple days won’t matter.” then “WTF IS THIS 25% interest? IT WAS ONLY A DAY LATE!!!!”

• 13 Nancy // Jul 2, 2008 at 3:40 pm

  
  Ohhh don’t get me started! I’m with you…and what about all these people who “got into trouble” with bad decisions about their mortgages and are now being helped out? What about all of us who made SMART decisions and are still just mucking through??

• 14 Melanie @ Mel, A Dramatic Mommy // Jul 2, 2008 at 4:07 pm

  
  Amen! Know what you’re signing and be prepared! We certainly didn’t plan for me to lose my job but we’re not going to throw everything away and wait a few years for everything to be OK again.

  Our rating is getting better too, but it’s not where I want it to be. I got a secured credit card through my bank with a LOW limit (as in if I have to pay it off right NOW I can) and it’s helped a lot.

  I also check my credit report three times a year through annualcreditreport.com. Most states allow one free report per year and I stagger them so I can check in the beginning, middle and end of the year.

  I’m also going to start checking my son’s SS# so we don’t find out when he’s 18 and trying to get his first car that he’s already a homeowner with 2 cars, a boat and $30k in debt!

• 15 Missy // Jul 2, 2008 at 4:13 pm

  
  OH! That made me think of another thing. Never ever ever ever name your son after your husband. We’re constantly finding stuff on his credit report that belongs to his father and vice versa. Surprise surprise…they can’t figure this shit out. Well I don’t know hoooooooowww this got mixed up! Whoops! Sorry about your credit rating!

• 16 Steph // Jul 2, 2008 at 4:53 pm

  
  Noel - Thanks for the link. I’ve got that sucker saved so I can dig in and study it.

  Missy - They’ve learned this from our dumbass mistakes. We talk to them about what NOT to do all the time. lol.

  Nancy - This is exactly what I’m saying. We’re so quick to offer an “easy” solution, so it’s hard for people to choose to the right thing anymore.

  Melanie - Right? I have my eyes on the kids’ reports all the time.

• 17 Jane // Jul 2, 2008 at 11:17 pm

  
  That ticks me off *for you. Three years ago, as you know, we refi’d our mortgage to pay off all credit card debts. We essentially GAVE UP ten years’ worth of equity in our home to get debt-free. Bankruptcy was unthinkable to us. We’ve been credit-free for almost five years now (that’
  s FIVE credit-free Christmases, mind you) and it’s going just fine. Our credit score today? Bottom range of “Fair” (upper range of “poor) — GRRR.

• 18 San Diego Momma // Jul 3, 2008 at 12:02 am

  
  I feel the same way you do — I think people take advantage of the system.

  I also think people abuse welfare and all kinds of public funding. But I’m a cynical wench.

• 19 Lisa // Jul 3, 2008 at 12:48 am

  
  Well, you know how I feel about bankruptcy. It’s theft, pure and simple. I admire you and Bill for plugging along at your obligations and recognizing them for what they are…obligations that you commited to. It’s unfair as hell that people who file get the points you don’t. In fact, I don’t think bankruptcy should even exist…live up to your word and deal.

  And Robbi? I’ll debate with you all day long about “folks get themselves in a place, truly through no fault of their own,”…it is *always through fault of their own. It might not be intentional, but it is always their fault. Can I just say “always” again?

• 20 matteroffactmommy // Jul 3, 2008 at 6:21 am

  
  my husband declared bankruptcy right before we got married, and then put me as primary on the house so that they couldn’t come after the house… smart, eh?

  so yeah, he’s one of those assholes who worked the system…

• 21 Steph // Jul 3, 2008 at 7:40 am

  
  Jane - It so blows, doesn’t it? How is that even close to right??

  Deb - Oh, my friend. I can’t start the welfare debate…I’ll just say this - I am with you 100%.

  Lisa - And that’s it exactly - these are *our obligations. Is it our fault Bill lost? Of course not, but is it the hospital’s fault Bill lost his job? Nope. Why should they go unpaid?

  MoFM - And it shouldn’t be like that. But you guys just celebrated your tenth anniversary, so his credit would be okay anyway. lol.

• 22 Steph // Jul 3, 2008 at 7:48 am

  
  Lost HIS JOB. Jeeez.

• 23 Robbi // Jul 3, 2008 at 9:04 am

  
  Oh, I’d debate you, Lisa. I think it’s pretty rare, but I do think there are good people who end up there, and truly without fault on their end. I’d bet there are some farmers in the midwest who will be forced into bankruptcy this year because of the flooding? Their “fault” because they had debt agaisnt their operations, or their fault because they can’t afford to replace hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of machinery and equipment to save their operation? Nah.

• 24 Steph // Jul 3, 2008 at 9:07 am

  
  Robbi - You know, I honestly hadn’t thought of that type of scenario. I *did think of families who go into massive debt trying to save a family member’s life, though.

  This is going to get good, innit?

• 25 Noel // Jul 3, 2008 at 9:15 am

  
  Good point, both you and Robbi.

• 26 Lindsey // Jul 3, 2008 at 9:46 am

  
  What really blows my mind and pisses me off is that half the people sitting in Congress have bankrupted MULTIPLE businesses. And they’re running the damn country. Anyone wondering why things are so dismal?

• 27 Steph // Jul 3, 2008 at 12:14 pm

  
  Lindsey - Wooo. That’s almost a whole new discussion, isn’t it? Our gov’t doesn’t run like a business, but we keep pumping money into it, don’t we?

• 28 matteroffactmommy // Jul 3, 2008 at 2:38 pm

  
  speaking of the gubment… i got a freaking speeding ticket on my way to work this morning. jerk cop didn’t have anything better to do than pull me over for going 45mph in a 30mph zone. WHO DOESN’T GO 45 in a 30!?

  what a great way to start off the weekend… pig.

• 29 Robbi // Jul 3, 2008 at 4:21 pm

  
  Well, because I’m feeling feisty, no, he *doesn’t have anything better to do than enforce the posted speed limits if he’s a traffic patrol cop.

• 30 Jean // Jul 3, 2008 at 8:30 pm

  
  No flaming here. I thought “character” was one of the things that determine credit worthiness and I’d think someone who is trying to pay off his debts has more character than someone who walks away from them. There are things I don’t understand about credit altogether, like why someone who has always paid more than the minimum and then makes a payment just a few days late has a worse rating than someone who has paid only the most minimal payment allowed all along.

  While I’ll argue that some of the causes of bankruptcy are a reflection of society’s ills, I do think that bankruptcy itself is always wrong because it’s the breaking of a promise to pay. It’s sort of like two wrongs don’t make a right in my mind. That said, I can’t help but have great sympathy for those who have to choose between declaring bankruptcy or being in debt for life as a result of bills for health care. I’m speaking specifically of the working poor, those who are unable to afford even catastophic insurance or whose earning capacity is so small that it would take them decades to pay off even a $10,000 deductible health bill.

• 31 Steph // Jul 3, 2008 at 8:48 pm

  
  Jean - Okay, so what about those farmers who were devastated by the recent floods here? I’m still waiting to hear from ANYONE what those folks should have done instead.

• 32 Lisa // Jul 3, 2008 at 9:46 pm

  
  Steph: They could have and should have bought crop insurance. It can even be gotten through the government, just like flood insurance, and at a reasonable price. You can even get lost potential crop income covered. Between that and proper insurance on their buildings and equipment, they’d be alright. Inconvenienced, but fine.

• 33 Steph // Jul 3, 2008 at 10:31 pm

  
  Lisa - Sure, if it happens once. But what happens next year when they still haven’t recovered? Or if, God forbid, they are hit again?

  I guess I just don’t see this as so very black and white, at least not in all cases.

• 34 Lisa // Jul 3, 2008 at 11:03 pm

  
  But you could “what if…” any situation and make excuses for it, if you wanted to. For me, it is black and white as far as bankruptcy. It’s nothing but theft. As for the farmers, there is crop coverage to cover all losses, including an inability to grow due to covered damage. Policies aren’t ridiculously priced, either, since it’s basically a federal (but non-means tested) public assistance program like the flood insurance many people buy. Their coverage will continue; it’s not a one-time use insurance. They can try to farm again, if they choose to. But in the end, in my mind, it comes down to the fact that they choose this career and they are resonsible for either seeing it work for them or finding a better one when it doesn’t. There’s no reason other than a failure on the part of the farmers for them to be utterly ruined by this flooding.

• 35 Robbi // Jul 3, 2008 at 11:24 pm

  
  ‘There’s no reason other than a failure on the part of the farmers for them to be utterly ruined by this flooding.’

  I couldn’t disagree more strongly. You, for sure, would know, given where you live and what you’ve seen in the insurance business, how utterly and completely useless insurance could prove to be in the face of a widespread disaster like the farms in the midwest are facing. It could be months, if not years, before they see any money from insurance. In the meantime, bills don’t get paid on coulda/woulda/should/gottheinsurancemoneyocoming. In their case, it’s a disaster, an Act of God, call it what you want — it’s not something they could have prevented.

  And when you say it’s a career they chose and if it’s not working out they should find a better one. Well, when you’re looking at $100K-plus tractor underwater, it’s probably kind of late for looking for a new career; right?

  My dad was a three generation rancher and it “didn’t work for him” and he ultimately had to “find a new career” — cleaning fucking carpets — but he did every last damn thing he could to hold up his end of the bargain before it came to that. I resent more than I could even express your flip “find a new career if this one doesn’t work” mindset. And I’d bet there’s a few thousand farmers in the midwest right now that would echo that, only a little more harshly than I’m expressing it.

• 36 Lisa // Jul 3, 2008 at 11:37 pm

  
  Each to his own, Steph, because everyone has their own stories and their own abilities and limits. And opinions. As you’ll recall, Jake’s grandfather is a farmer in a hard hit area, as was his father, grandfather, and on back. He farms 5 large farms, corn and soy, and his crops are shot…gone…much damage on the farms, as well. He’s very active in the Iowa farming community, holds an elected office and is a farm lobbiest. In spite of all that, he agrees with me, so I’m sorry if you resent what I say and I’ll stop with this, but my opinions on this absolutely have basis.

• 37 Lisa // Jul 3, 2008 at 11:39 pm

  
  Oops, sorry…I meant Robbi, not Steph. Gaaaa.

• 38 Robbi // Jul 4, 2008 at 12:38 am

  
  And I’ll stop, too, because relatives or no, until you’ve actually *lived through it, you can’t truly put yourself there. And to call my dad a thief, which you did, is not something I agree with. He’s in no way in even remotely the same boat as someone who just had to have the latest Prada/Gucci/Hummer/big house/boat/whatever and ultimately couldn’t pay for it, so chose to bag it and move on to his incredibly fulfilling career of carpet cleaning.

  He also couldn’t just clean out his desk, turn in his name tag, change offices, whatever when it became apparent it wasn’t “working out” for him, no more than any of those farmers in the midwest can. If you own land, and own a house on that land, and own hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment, and hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of animals, you don’t get to just turn them in and start your new career at Merrill Lynch on Monday. Until you are able to find someone who is able to take that over, it’s on you. If you have farmed, to beat this dead horse, a farm on the Mississippi River, and you’re doing just jim-dandy until a flood of historical proportions comes along and the levees you’ve been told will hold, *don’t, and your freakin’ pigs are being *shot on the levee, I don’t guess you’d really consider you were failing and in *need of a new career. And bottom line, if you absolutely cannot make a red cent, you absolutely cannot take responsibility. I’d guess losing 5,000 acres for a debt you incurred on 500 of those acres *is ultimately taking responsibility.

  And like I said, you of all people, know how bass ackwards the insurance industry works. As for the folks in the midwest, there will be time and more time to figure out whose fault this is and how much your pigs are worth and how much your tractor is worth, and whether or not you really need that many pigs, that big a tractor, etc. In the meantime, like I said, bills are piling up, and the way you pay bills is you plant your crops, you raise your animals, and if you can’t do that due to beauracratic (that’s spelled wrong) red tape, well, all good intentions and honorable thoughts and thoughts against thievery aside, there’s not a real question about whether you can last, just how long.

  I think calling people put in that situation a thief, and comparing them to people who run up umpteen credit cards? Is really, really heartless and an opinion born of reading paper “facts” as opposed to actually living it or actually thinking out the actual reality of those situations.

  JMO, and all that jazz.

• 39 Jean // Jul 4, 2008 at 12:48 am

  
  Steph - I guess I just assumed that farmers who can afford hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment might buy one piece less or sell a couple of acres out of all their land or SOMETHING in order to afford insurance. It’s not like they don’t have assets; they do.

  Robbi - I hadn’t thought of an insurance company failure and I’ve been at the end of one myself, not on as large a scale as a farmer but an insurance company with which we had an annuity that we invested heavily in, planning to borrow on it to pay for Rachel’s college education, failed and the assets were frozen for nine years before we saw a penny of it, so I do know what you’re talking about there. Subjects of insurance company failures, specifically ones who bought with highly rated companies that failed anyway do belong in the same category as those who have health insurance problems, in my opinion. That means I feel deeply sympathetic toward them and I think they should be included in state guarantee funds that have now been formed for other insurance failures and those state guarantee funds should be required to pay in a timely manner but it still doesn’t change my opinion that society’s failure to make that happen doesn’t mean a second unethical thing should occur and people should walk away from at least slowly trying to pay for the debts they promised to pay to creditors who had no blame for what has happened either.

• 40 Noel // Jul 4, 2008 at 8:17 am

  
  Plus, too, it’s my impression that a lot of farmers run pretty close to the edge finance wise, there being so little real profit margin in it. Crop insurance is great once, but like Steph said, what about twice? IMO, these are the kind of folks that BK is made for.

• 41 Noel // Jul 4, 2008 at 8:26 am

  
  Jean - most farmers afford that equipment by bank financing. They also finance their crops against future profit. IMO, unless you’re running an *extremely large set up, you’re really not making a grand living. And unlike mortgage brokers, you can’t just relocate all the farmers who aren’t making big bank to other careers, YK?

• 42 Robbi // Jul 4, 2008 at 9:01 am

  
  Quote: ” …required to pay in a timely manner but it still doesn’t change my opinion that society’s failure to make that happen doesn’t mean a second unethical thing should occur and people should walk away from at least slowly trying to pay for the debts they promised to pay to creditors who had no blame for what has happened either.”

  But in the case of my dad, he *did pay. He lost 5,000 acres of family owned land, every piece of equipment he had, our animals, our house, all of it. He paid that debt, and then some, IMO. And he still had to claim bankruptcy, because in the end he was left with nothing. He couldn’t just sell a tractor, or a couple acres of land, it’s not that easy. Tractors aren’t exactly yard sale items, you need a buyer, and in the time when he ultimately went down, (mid 0’s) so were thousands of other small operations, and no one was looking to buy a $100K tractor. Second, we lived 30 miles and 60 miles from any sort of decent-sized towns, and two acres of sagebrush pasture or two acres of hay ground weren’t exactly hot sellers, even IF it was allowable to cut them off from the rest of our property. In addition, the process of surveying and subdividing land is a lengthy and expensive process — not something you can do as an emergency catch-all in bad financial times.

  And yes, everything Noel said is true. Unless you’re running a huge operation, there’s no extra money in it. Financing against future profit is pretty much how it’s done, and yes, if you’re running a smart and responsible operation you can last a couple of seasons of things going wrong, but you can’t go on and on for years, and insurance isn’t going to support you through several bad years, either. And when you’re faced with complete desolation, like many of those farms in the midwest, you can’t just wipe the mud off the tractor seat and start up again — they are starting at less than scratch, if they even *can start again. And if it were to flood and wipe them out again next year? How many could survive two years? Not to mention, which is no excuse for not being responsible, either, but the emotional toll of that sort of thing? Is huge. Huge. Speaking from experience.

• 43 Robbi // Jul 4, 2008 at 9:01 am

  
  *mid 80’s.

• 44 Noel // Jul 4, 2008 at 9:15 am

  
  Just thinking on this for a minute, too - is crop insurance like flood insurance? If it is, (or heck, even if it isn’t), that kind of program clearly isn’t designed to pay out for widespread catastrophic failure. The lesson of Katrina. Even if it isn’t federal, I mean, look at Florida and how many many insured people can no longer get insurance because of past “acts of nature”. It sucks all around, but IMO it isn’t just black and white. There truly are people who farm close to the edge, and if we just let them fail, what happens? Which really moves me toward thinking of farm subsidies, which is something I’m not *entirely sure about. Look at how everyone is bitching about how much stuff costs now. But really? Our costs on food are held relatively artificially low because of various factors in this country, but primarily farm subsidy. Historically and in lots of other countries even today, food costs are approximately 30% or more of income. Here in the U.S. , it’s about 17, 18%. The question becomes, do we let the small farms fail, and accept that our costs will rise exponentially or not? I don’t think folks are willing to do that. We’ll see this coming year, you know. We’ve had massive crop failure here, and regardless if they are insured or not, there still aren’t any corn or soybeans to be had. I
  O think we’ll be shocked, food isn’t the only thing that will rise; corn and soy go into a LOT of stuff.

• 45 Jean // Jul 4, 2008 at 9:32 am

  
  Noel - I had no idea that EVERYTHING was financed, even their crops against future profits. I figured they have to own something at SOME time or what’s their purpose in continuing if they never get ahead, are always one step away from disaster? Is it that there never will be a buyer for their land and equipment BECAUSE there’s no potential for getting ahead?

  Robbi - You’re describing a situation and level of rural that I admit, I’ve never even seen with my own two eyes. Your father did do everything he could to avoid the bankruptcy (and please understand, I’m speaking generalities and I know it’s always easier to speak generalities than to deal with the practicalities of an actual example) but I guess my question to both you and Noel is this:

  You’re both describing a situation where it sounds impossible to get ahead, always a step away from possible disaster. I do understand that someone who has been in farming for years cannot just pick up and get another career. What I don’t understand is why their children are not being taught to go into something other than farming, since it seems farming will always be problematic, it will always be weather related and there’s no way to avoid potential disasters and no way to get ahead, to own the land and machinery and NOT have to have them heavily financed anymore? I know, all this would have ramifications for our economy that I couldn’t begin to imagine but from a personal point of view of wanting your children not to struggle, I’d think encouraging them to leave farming would be what parents would do. What am I still missing here? And why are lenders still willing to lend when they know the risks are so high, that outside events could really make bankruptcy the only solution in the end?

• 46 Steph // Jul 4, 2008 at 10:11 am

  
  Jean - So basically, you spoke about farmers and what they oughtta do to avoid bankruptcy without really knowing anything about how it works in farm finance?

  Lisa - Perhaps he can come enlighten all of us about how it all works? Because from just sitting here reading, I can’t imagine why a farmer would be on your side of this debate. I’d really like to hear his thoughts.

  Robbi & Noel - Y’all can just speak for me on this one.

• 47 Robbi // Jul 4, 2008 at 10:25 am

  
  Well, Noel is better at answering with actual facts and statistics, whereas I’m answering more from an emotional level and personal experience

  But first off, where would you be without farmers and ranchers, on purely a personal level? Are you able to raise a cow, some chickens, a garden to feed yourself by yourself? Not to mention are you able to make all the other products that, like Noel mentioned, contain, for instance, soy and corn? Do you have the time to devote to all the work that means? If you are, then how many other people do you know who *aren’t able to? Yes, farming and ranching will always be problematic, but to say we don’t need it to survive is very short-sighted.

  As to wanting your children to do something else? I know personally and read several other blogs written by farmers/ranchers– farmers and ranchers *do encourage/accept/offer other options for their kids, but oftentimes those kids, like my dad, choose to stay becuase they love it, and they don’t *want to do anything else. I’ll say I’d love to be living that life myself, that to me it’s worth the struggles because most of it isn’t a struggle, and it’s incredibly satisfying, to me, anyway. It’s not like you describe where you’re just struggling and have nothing and can’t buy Jimmy new shoes for school — we were very happy, and we had everything we needed and then some. We took vacations, we had decent vehicles, we had new clothes, we had everything anyone else did - it’s not a life of poverty, but it is a life of very hard work, and it is a life that is to some degree completely out of your hands and dictated by weather, by market conditions, etc.

  As far as owning machinery and land and not being in debt, , we owned flat out, a lot of our machinery. Most of it, in fact. But the pieces you *do have to finance are unbelievably expensive, as are things they need on a regular basis, like tires, maintenance, etc. We owned the land, but did mortgage a very small portion of it. And my dad and his dad, like every other rancher and farmer I know were experts at making things run with baling wire and cussing, , but the use that that equipment gets is hard use, and it eventually has to be replaced, and to stay competitive and stay profitable, new and more efficient equipment has to be purchased.

  And I can’t speak for why lenders continue to lend, maybe Noel can. But obviously we *do need farmers and ranchers, so maybe that’s why? Again, what would we do if there were none? It’s not feasible, in this day and age and given the sheer number of people alive on this earth, to imagine that we’d go back to living off the land, all of us. Also, imagine the ramifications in all sorts of industries that rely on farming and ranching, if not just the actual food on our tables part. The trucking industry? What would they haul? Supermarkets? Restaurants?

  And in general, farming operations are not going under willy-nilly. They run for years without major glitches. But they do get hit with things like this flooding and they do get hit with things like market prices dropping out from underneath them, and how long they are able to last depends on each situation individually.

• 48 Bill // Jul 4, 2008 at 10:32 am

  
  I agree that bankruptcy should be a measure of last resort, and too many people today abuse it. But onto the farmers…I can’t think of another industry where so much money is spent to make such a small profit margin. Why do they do it? Because they have always done it, and someone has to. There was a time when there was not a more noble thing for a son to do than to take over the family farm. When you mention to a farmer that they alone can feed over 100 people, you see the pride in them. Farmers don’t have the means to donate $1,000,000 to UNICEF to feed the kids in Africa, so they do what they can, which is actually feed the kids.

  Farming is a noble profession, and usually a pretty thankless job. I don’t know what all insurance will cover, but what happens when a farmer has a large herd of cattle, all the feed corn that was saved up is destroyed by mold, they hay is destroyed by mold, and his new crop of corn is destroyed by the floods? He is stuck with cattle he can’t feed, and therefore can’t sell. He has thousands of acres that are swampland and won’t sell, and perhaps millions of dollars in equipment that he can’t pay for. I am betting insurance won’t write him a check that will cover all the costs and allow him to continue farming, which is his means of supporting his family. He has known nothing but farming all his life. He understands crop rotation, can tell you how much a hog weighs by looking at it, and can calculate soy and corn yeilds on the same plot of land in his head, but might not be able to even read. What is he going to do?

  Sometimes bankruptcy is acceptable.

• 49 Robbi // Jul 4, 2008 at 11:17 am

  
  I agree with everything you just said, Mr. Bill.

• 50 myra // Jul 4, 2008 at 12:56 pm

  
  i could not agree with you more. i think people abuse bankruptcy knowing they get a free do over. wouldn’t it be nice to shrug your responsibilities so easily?

• 51 Steph // Jul 4, 2008 at 1:07 pm

  
  Myra - Right? I can see how it’s necessary in some cases, but there are still entirely too many people who view it as a free pass.

• 52 myra // Jul 4, 2008 at 1:17 pm

  
  true - i’m not saying that it’s not absolutely necessary sometimes, and i’m not judging them in any way. but i know of too many people who have abused it.

• 53 Noel // Jul 4, 2008 at 1:51 pm

  
  Jean - Yep. There’s really not much profit in farming, and it really can be a year over year thing. Unless you have a very big operation - which is why you see more and more farms becoming those uber mega type farms, YK? I want to say that I read something recently that said approximantely 80% of our agriculture is now concentrated in 20% of our farms, and we’re talking acreage of upwards of a thousand plus. I know around here, the value is really in the land, even now. Lots of farmers lease their fields now. And sure, lots of the parents *do encourage their kids to do other things, precisely because it’s such hard, thankless work, YK? You really have to love it to do it, IMO. My friend’s dad farms a couple of hundred acres, he had 8 kids, and not one of them farms. LOTS of folks in the midwest lost family farms in the 80s. It’s just not really feasable to farm like you probably picture from “the old days” - a hundred acres, a barn, a few cows.

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